Difference between revisions of "Avraham's Prayer for Sedom/2/en"
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<point><b>Collective Punishment</b></point> | <point><b>Collective Punishment</b></point> | ||
<point><b>Collective Salvation</b></point> | <point><b>Collective Salvation</b></point> | ||
+ | <point><b>Why does Avraham stop at 10?</b></point> | ||
<point><b>What happened at the end?</b></point> | <point><b>What happened at the end?</b></point> | ||
<point><b>Was Avraham's Prayer Accepted?</b></point> | <point><b>Was Avraham's Prayer Accepted?</b></point> | ||
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<p>Avraham was only praying for the sinners, being certain that Hashem would save the righteous even without his request.</p> | <p>Avraham was only praying for the sinners, being certain that Hashem would save the righteous even without his request.</p> | ||
<mekorot><multilink><a href="RSRHirschBereshit18-23-25" data-aht="source">R. S"R Hirsch</a><a href="RSRHirschBereshit18-23-25" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:23-25</a><a href="R. Samson Raphael Hirsch" data-aht="parshan">About R. Samson Raphael Hirsch</a></multilink></mekorot> | <mekorot><multilink><a href="RSRHirschBereshit18-23-25" data-aht="source">R. S"R Hirsch</a><a href="RSRHirschBereshit18-23-25" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:23-25</a><a href="R. Samson Raphael Hirsch" data-aht="parshan">About R. Samson Raphael Hirsch</a></multilink></mekorot> | ||
− | <point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"</b> – <p>R. S"R Hirsch explains the word "תִּסְפֶּה" as to punish.  He says that by killing the sinners, the righteous are also getting punished because after working hard to reform the wicked,<fn>According to R. Hirsch, Avraham assumed that | + | <point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"</b> – <p>R. S"R Hirsch explains the word "תִּסְפֶּה" as to punish.  He says that by killing the sinners, the righteous are also getting punished because after working hard to reform the wicked,<fn>According to R. Hirsch, Avraham assumed that any righteous person  who lived in Sedom must have invested much effort in correcting his neighbors' behavior and tried to turn them towards the right path.</fn> it is distressful for them to see them nonetheless perish.</p></point> |
− | <point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"</b> – R. Hirsch distinguishes between the terms "לְמַעַן" and "בגלל", asserting that the former means "for the good of" rather than "because of".  Thus, Avraham was praying that all of the people in the city be saved as a reward for the righteous,<fn>See above that the righteous would be pained to watch the destruction of their  neighbors whom they had tried so valiantly (though unsuccessfully) to reform.</fn> but not due to their righteousness.<fn>R. Hirsch might be hesitant to suggest that the wicked simply be saved collectively with the righteous, since they do not really deserve pardon.  Thus, he instead has Avraham justify their salvation by pointing out how their destruction would be an unjust punishment for others.</fn></point> | + | <point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"</b> – R. Hirsch distinguishes between the terms "לְמַעַן" and "בגלל", asserting that the former means "for the good/sake of" rather than "because of".  Thus, Avraham was praying that all of the people in the city be saved as a reward for the righteous,<fn>See above that the righteous would be pained to watch the destruction of their  neighbors whom they had tried so valiantly (though unsuccessfully) to reform.</fn> but not due to their righteousness.<fn>R. Hirsch might be hesitant to suggest that the wicked should simply be saved collectively with the righteous, since they do not really deserve pardon.  Thus, he instead has Avraham justify their salvation by pointing out how their destruction would be an unjust punishment for others.</fn></point> |
− | <point><b>Meaning of  "לַמָּקוֹם"</b> – This approach maintains that "לַמָּקוֹם" is a general term for all of the people of the city.</point> | + | <point><b>Meaning of  "לַמָּקוֹם"</b> – This approach maintains that "לַמָּקוֹם" is a general term for all of the people of the city.<fn>The word is a form of metonymy, where the citizens are understood to be referred to because o ftheir association with the place.</fn></point> |
<point><b>"חָלִלָה לְּךָ מֵעֲשֹׂת כַּדָּבָר הַזֶּה לְהָמִית צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"</b> – This sentence is problematic for R. Hirsch, since it implies that Avraham is bothered by the possibility that the righteous will actually be killed (and not just distressed by the deaths of others).<fn>R. Hirsch attempts to explain that their distress at each lost life would be so great that it was almost like being killed, "והיה סובל יסורי – מות באבדן כל נפש".  This, though, is not the simple reading of the verse.</fn></point> | <point><b>"חָלִלָה לְּךָ מֵעֲשֹׂת כַּדָּבָר הַזֶּה לְהָמִית צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"</b> – This sentence is problematic for R. Hirsch, since it implies that Avraham is bothered by the possibility that the righteous will actually be killed (and not just distressed by the deaths of others).<fn>R. Hirsch attempts to explain that their distress at each lost life would be so great that it was almost like being killed, "והיה סובל יסורי – מות באבדן כל נפש".  This, though, is not the simple reading of the verse.</fn></point> | ||
− | <point><b>Relationship between verses 23-25</b> – The three verses all constitute one request and refer only to the | + | <point><b>Relationship between verses 23-25</b> – The three verses all constitute one request and refer only to the injustice that would be done to the righteous through the destruction of the wicked..</point> |
<point><b>Collective Punishment</b> – According to R. S"R Hirsch, Avraham is not arguing about the injustice of collective punishment; it was obvious to him all along that Hashem would not kill the righteous.</point> | <point><b>Collective Punishment</b> – According to R. S"R Hirsch, Avraham is not arguing about the injustice of collective punishment; it was obvious to him all along that Hashem would not kill the righteous.</point> | ||
− | <point><b>Collective Salvation</b> – According to R. Hirsch there is no collective salvation either.  Hashem agrees to save the wicked if there are a portion of righteous in the city, not because they are part of the collective, but because the very presence of righteous people proves that the wicked tolerated them and thus were not totally corrupt.<fn>He explains that in his answer to Avraham, Hashem uses the word "בַּעֲבוּרָם" rather than Avraham's "למען" to show that He is saving the wicked not for the good of the righteous, but because of their very existence.</fn></point> | + | <point><b>Collective Salvation</b> – According to R. Hirsch there is no collective salvation either.  Hashem agrees to save the wicked if there are a portion of righteous in the city, not because they are part of the collective,<fn>See above note, that Avraham, too, was not expecting the wicked to be saved only because of the merit of the righteous, but in order to prevent unjust suffering on the part of the righteous.</fn> but because the very presence of righteous people proves that the wicked tolerated them and thus were not totally corrupt.<fn>He explains that in his answer to Avraham, Hashem uses the word "בַּעֲבוּרָם" rather than Avraham's "למען" to show that He is saving the wicked not for the good of the righteous, but because of their very existence.</fn></point> |
+ | <point><b>Why does Avraham stop at 10?</b> R. Hirsch asserts that Avraham understood why Hashem was willing to save the wicked,<fn>See bullet above.</fn> and realized that if there were less than ten righteous, the fact that they were tolerated is no longer such a merit for the wicked, since it is likely that they simply dismissed them as insignificant.<fn>He points out that the opposite is true as well.  If there were many righteous in the city, it is likely that the attitude of the wicked towards them was motivated by fear, not some small modicum of conscience.</fn></point> | ||
<point><b>What happened at the end?</b> Though Hashem accepts Avraham's prayer, apparently there were not enough righteous people to be found to enable a saving of the wicked.</point> | <point><b>What happened at the end?</b> Though Hashem accepts Avraham's prayer, apparently there were not enough righteous people to be found to enable a saving of the wicked.</point> | ||
<point><b>Was Avraham's Prayer Accepted?</b></point> | <point><b>Was Avraham's Prayer Accepted?</b></point> | ||
− | <point><b>Was Lot Righteous?</b> R. Hirsch writes that Lot was "only with difficulty worthy of salvation".  It was | + | <point><b>Was Lot Righteous?</b> R. Hirsch writes that Lot was "only with difficulty worthy of salvation".  It was Hashem's attribute of mercy rather than justice which saved him.</point> |
<point><b>Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom?</b></point> | <point><b>Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom?</b></point> | ||
</opinion> | </opinion> | ||
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<point><b>Collective Punishment</b> – R. Y"S Reggio</point> | <point><b>Collective Punishment</b> – R. Y"S Reggio</point> | ||
<point><b>Collective Salvation</b></point> | <point><b>Collective Salvation</b></point> | ||
+ | <point><b>Why does Avraham stop at 10?</b></point> | ||
<point><b>What happened at the end?</b></point> | <point><b>What happened at the end?</b></point> | ||
<point><b>Was Avraham's Prayer Accepted?</b></point> | <point><b>Was Avraham's Prayer Accepted?</b></point> | ||
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<point><b>Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם"</b> – This approach holds that "לַמָּקוֹם" means literally the land itself.</point> | <point><b>Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם"</b> – This approach holds that "לַמָּקוֹם" means literally the land itself.</point> | ||
<point><b>Relationship between verses 23-25</b> – According to these commentators the verses contain two different requests, that the righteous be saved (verses 23 and 25) and that the land not be destroyed (verse 24).  According to Ma'asei Hashem the common denominator is the demand that justice be done to the worthy people of the city.  However, it is unclear why Avraham goes back and forth between his different requests.</point> | <point><b>Relationship between verses 23-25</b> – According to these commentators the verses contain two different requests, that the righteous be saved (verses 23 and 25) and that the land not be destroyed (verse 24).  According to Ma'asei Hashem the common denominator is the demand that justice be done to the worthy people of the city.  However, it is unclear why Avraham goes back and forth between his different requests.</point> | ||
− | <point><b>Collective Punishment</b> – This approach might maintain that Hashem had never planned to collectively punish Sedom; there were simply no righteous people to save.  Avraham, however, was unaware of this reality and mistakenly thought that Hashem was going to unjustly destroy them and their land.</point> | + | <point><b>Collective Punishment</b> – This approach might maintain that Hashem had never planned to collectively punish Sedom; there were simply no righteous people to save.  Avraham, however, was unaware of this reality and mistakenly thought that Hashem was going to unjustly destroy them and their land.<fn>Radak implies that collectyive punishment i affected by the level of righteousness of a person.  If worthy, he will be saved despite the surrounding destruction, but if he is less worthy he might perish together with them.  In this case, it is unclear if all were active sinners or simply not righteous enough.</fn></point> |
− | <point><b>Collective Salvation</b> – According to this approach both Hashem and Avraham wanted the sinners to be punished as it would be unjust for them to be saved.<fn>This issue is one of the motivating factors leading Ma'asei Hashem to understand that the discussion in verse 24 is about the land rather than the wicked of the city.</fn></point> | + | <point><b>Collective Salvation</b> – According to this approach both Hashem and Avraham wanted the sinners to be punished as it would be unjust for them to be saved.<fn>This issue is one of the motivating factors leading Ma'asei Hashem to understand that the discussion in verse 24 is about the land rather than the wicked of the city.</fn> </point> |
+ | <point><b>Why does Avraham stop at ten?</b> R. Yehudah HaChasid and Radak assert if there are less than 10 righteous people, there is no longer any justification to save the land.<fn>Radak notes that in Yechezkel 22, Hashem seems willing to save the land for even just one good person.  He suggests that there the person spoken of is a totally righteous person who was willing to reform those around him.  If no such people were to be found, though, there is not enough merit to save a city.  As further proof that sometimes the land will be destroyed despite the presence of even very righteous people, Radak points to Yechezkel 14:16 where Hashem says that though Noach, Daniel and Iyyov might be saved, "the land will lay barren".</fn>  Regarding the salvation of the righteous, though, one would think that it should not matter how many or few there were; each should be saved for his own deeds regardless of the presence of others.  Ma'asei Hashem, in fact, asserts that Avraham had planned on asking Hashem to save even one, but Hashem ended the conversation before he could.</point> | ||
<point><b>What happened at the end?</b> The land and people were destroyed since there were no righteous people.  Lot was saved, not due to his goodness, but out of kindness to Avraham.</point> | <point><b>What happened at the end?</b> The land and people were destroyed since there were no righteous people.  Lot was saved, not due to his goodness, but out of kindness to Avraham.</point> | ||
<point><b>Was Lot Righteous?</b> Radak and Ma'asei Hashem both maintain that Lot was not righteous and was only saved because of Avraham.</point> | <point><b>Was Lot Righteous?</b> Radak and Ma'asei Hashem both maintain that Lot was not righteous and was only saved because of Avraham.</point> |
Version as of 23:16, 5 November 2014
Avraham's Prayer for Sedom
Exegetical Approaches
Even for Sinners
Avraham wanted all of the people in Sedom to be saved. Commentators disagree, though, regarding whom Avraham was actively praying for:
For Both Righteous and Wicked
Avraham was praying for everyone in Sedom to be saved, both the righteous and the wicked.
Specifically for the Wicked
Avraham was only praying for the sinners, being certain that Hashem would save the righteous even without his request.
R. S"R Hirsch explains the word "תִּסְפֶּה" as to punish. He says that by killing the sinners, the righteous are also getting punished because after working hard to reform the wicked,1 it is distressful for them to see them nonetheless perish.
Only for the Righteous
Avraham was praying only for the righteous, that they should not die due to the rest of the people's sins.
These commentators differ in the understanding of this verse:
- Seforno explains
- Biur and R. Y"S Reggio say
For the Physical Location
Avraham was praying for both the righteous of Sedom, and that Hashem not destroy the land itself.