Difference between revisions of "Avraham's Prayer for Sedom/2/en"

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<p>Avraham was only praying for the sinners, being certain that Hashem would save the righteous even without his request.</p>
 
<p>Avraham was only praying for the sinners, being certain that Hashem would save the righteous even without his request.</p>
 
<mekorot><multilink><a href="RSRHirschBereshit18-23-25" data-aht="source">R. S"R Hirsch</a><a href="RSRHirschBereshit18-23-25" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:23-25</a><a href="RSRHirschBereshit18-28-33" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:28-33</a><a href="RSRHirschBereshit19-29" data-aht="source">Bereshit 19:29</a><a href="R. Samson Raphael Hirsch" data-aht="parshan">About R. Samson Raphael Hirsch</a></multilink></mekorot>
 
<mekorot><multilink><a href="RSRHirschBereshit18-23-25" data-aht="source">R. S"R Hirsch</a><a href="RSRHirschBereshit18-23-25" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:23-25</a><a href="RSRHirschBereshit18-28-33" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:28-33</a><a href="RSRHirschBereshit19-29" data-aht="source">Bereshit 19:29</a><a href="R. Samson Raphael Hirsch" data-aht="parshan">About R. Samson Raphael Hirsch</a></multilink></mekorot>
<point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"</b> – <p>R. S"R Hirsch explains the word "תִּסְפֶּה" as to punish.&#160; He says that by killing the sinners, the righteous are also getting punished because after working hard to reform the wicked,<fn>According to R. Hirsch, Avraham assumed that any righteous person&#160; who lived in Sedom must have invested much effort in correcting his neighbors' behavior and tried to turn them towards the right path.</fn> it is distressful for them to see them nonetheless perish.</p></point>
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<point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"</b> – <p>R. S"R Hirsch does not address the meaning of the word "הַאַף" but seems to be reading the phrase as if written "הַתִּסְפֶּה&#160;אַף צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע".&#160; He explains the word "תִּסְפֶּה" as to punish and suggests that Avraham is pointing out that by killing the sinners, the righteous are also, unjustly getting punished. After working hard to reform the wicked,<fn>According to R. Hirsch, Avraham assumed that any righteous person&#160; who lived in Sedom must have invested much effort in correcting his neighbors' behavior and tried to turn them towards the right path.</fn> it is distressful for them to see the people nonetheless perish.</p></point>
 
<point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"</b> – R. Hirsch distinguishes between the terms "לְמַעַן" and "בגלל", asserting that the former means "for the good/sake of" rather than "because of".&#160; Thus, Avraham was praying that all of the people in the city be saved as a reward for the righteous,<fn>See above that the righteous would be pained to watch the destruction of their&#160; neighbors whom they had tried so valiantly (though unsuccessfully) to reform.</fn> but not due to their righteousness.<fn>R. Hirsch might be hesitant to suggest that the wicked should simply be saved collectively with the righteous, since they do not really deserve pardon.&#160; Thus, he instead has Avraham justify their salvation by pointing out how their destruction would be an unjust punishment for others.</fn></point>
 
<point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"</b> – R. Hirsch distinguishes between the terms "לְמַעַן" and "בגלל", asserting that the former means "for the good/sake of" rather than "because of".&#160; Thus, Avraham was praying that all of the people in the city be saved as a reward for the righteous,<fn>See above that the righteous would be pained to watch the destruction of their&#160; neighbors whom they had tried so valiantly (though unsuccessfully) to reform.</fn> but not due to their righteousness.<fn>R. Hirsch might be hesitant to suggest that the wicked should simply be saved collectively with the righteous, since they do not really deserve pardon.&#160; Thus, he instead has Avraham justify their salvation by pointing out how their destruction would be an unjust punishment for others.</fn></point>
 
<point><b>Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם"</b> – This approach maintains that "לַמָּקוֹם" is a general term for all of the people of the city.<fn>The word is a form of metonymy, where the citizens are understood to be referred to because o ftheir association with the place.</fn></point>
 
<point><b>Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם"</b> – This approach maintains that "לַמָּקוֹם" is a general term for all of the people of the city.<fn>The word is a form of metonymy, where the citizens are understood to be referred to because o ftheir association with the place.</fn></point>
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<p>Avraham was praying for both the righteous of Sedom, and that Hashem not destroy the land itself.</p>
 
<p>Avraham was praying for both the righteous of Sedom, and that Hashem not destroy the land itself.</p>
 
<mekorot><multilink><a href="MoshavZekeinimBereshit18-23" data-aht="source">R. Yehuda HaChasid</a><a href="MoshavZekeinimBereshit18-23" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:23</a><a href="Moshav Zekeinim" data-aht="parshan">About Moshav Zekeinim</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="RadakBereshit18-24" data-aht="source">Radak</a><a href="RadakBereshit18-24" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:24</a><a href="RadakBereshit18-32" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:32</a><a href="R. David Kimchi (Radak)" data-aht="parshan">About R. David Kimchi</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="MaaseiHashemMaaseiAvot17" data-aht="source">Ma'asei Hashem</a><a href="MaaseiHashemMaaseiAvot17" data-aht="source">Ma'asei Avot 17</a><a href="R. Eliezer Ashkenazi (Maasei Hashem)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Eliezer Ashkenazi</a></multilink></mekorot>
 
<mekorot><multilink><a href="MoshavZekeinimBereshit18-23" data-aht="source">R. Yehuda HaChasid</a><a href="MoshavZekeinimBereshit18-23" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:23</a><a href="Moshav Zekeinim" data-aht="parshan">About Moshav Zekeinim</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="RadakBereshit18-24" data-aht="source">Radak</a><a href="RadakBereshit18-24" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:24</a><a href="RadakBereshit18-32" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:32</a><a href="R. David Kimchi (Radak)" data-aht="parshan">About R. David Kimchi</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="MaaseiHashemMaaseiAvot17" data-aht="source">Ma'asei Hashem</a><a href="MaaseiHashemMaaseiAvot17" data-aht="source">Ma'asei Avot 17</a><a href="R. Eliezer Ashkenazi (Maasei Hashem)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Eliezer Ashkenazi</a></multilink></mekorot>
<point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"</b> – This approach reads this verse in its simple sense, to mean that Avraham was questioning how Hashem could kill the righteous with the wicked.</point>
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<point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"</b> – Radak understands "הַאַף" to mean "הגם" and that Avraham is questioning if killing the righteous with the wicked is also part of the sentence of the wicked.<fn>Radak also brings the opinion of Onkelos and Ramban above, that "הַאַף" relates to anger and Avraham is questioning if Hashem's anger is leading him to kill also the righteous.</fn></point>
<point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"</b> – According to all these sources, these words serve as a request that Hashem should not destroy the city itself,<fn>Ma'asei Hashem rejects the possibility that the verse refers to all of the people of the city, wicked included, since it is unfathomable that Avraham should ask that sinners who had not repented should go unpunished.&#160; In addition, he asserts that Avraham is explicitly asking that justice be done and saving the sinners is not an act of justice, but rather of mercy.</fn> but the commentators differ in their understanding of Avrahams' reasoning.&#160;&#160; Radak asserts that Avraham was requesting that the city be saved due to the merit of the righteous people while Ma'asei Hashem maintains that Avraham did not think it just that the righteous should lose their land.<fn>He adds that Avraham might be further motivated to save the land because it belonged to him as part of Hashem's promise.</fn></point>
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<point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"</b> – According to all these sources, these words represent a second request, that Hashem should not destroy the city itself,<fn>Ma'asei Hashem rejects the possibility that the verse refers to all of the people of the city, wicked included, since it is unfathomable that Avraham should ask that sinners who had not repented should go unpunished.&#160; In addition, he asserts that Avraham is explicitly asking that justice be done and saving the sinners is not an act of justice, but rather of mercy.</fn> but the commentators differ in their understanding of Avraham's reasoning. Radak asserts that Avraham was requesting that the city be saved due to the merit of the righteous people while Ma'asei Hashem maintains that Avraham did not think it just that the righteous should lose their land.<fn>He adds that Avraham might be further motivated to save the land because it belonged to him as part of Hashem's promise.</fn></point>
 
<point><b>Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם"</b> – This approach holds that "לַמָּקוֹם" means literally the land itself.</point>
 
<point><b>Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם"</b> – This approach holds that "לַמָּקוֹם" means literally the land itself.</point>
 
<point><b>Relationship between verses 23-25</b> – According to these commentators the verses contain two different requests, that the righteous be saved (verses 23 and 25) and that the land not be destroyed (verse 24).&#160; According to Ma'asei Hashem the common denominator is the demand that justice be done to the worthy people of the city.&#160; However, it is unclear why Avraham goes back and forth between his different requests.</point>
 
<point><b>Relationship between verses 23-25</b> – According to these commentators the verses contain two different requests, that the righteous be saved (verses 23 and 25) and that the land not be destroyed (verse 24).&#160; According to Ma'asei Hashem the common denominator is the demand that justice be done to the worthy people of the city.&#160; However, it is unclear why Avraham goes back and forth between his different requests.</point>
 
<point><b>Collective Punishment</b> – This approach might maintain that Hashem had never planned to collectively punish Sedom; there were simply no righteous people to save.&#160; Avraham, however, was unaware of this reality and mistakenly thought that Hashem was going to unjustly destroy them and their land.<fn>Radak implies that collective punishment is affected by the level of righteousness of a person.&#160; If worthy, he will be saved despite the surrounding destruction, but if he is less worthy he might perish together with them.&#160; In this case, it is unclear if all were active sinners or simply not righteous enough.</fn></point>
 
<point><b>Collective Punishment</b> – This approach might maintain that Hashem had never planned to collectively punish Sedom; there were simply no righteous people to save.&#160; Avraham, however, was unaware of this reality and mistakenly thought that Hashem was going to unjustly destroy them and their land.<fn>Radak implies that collective punishment is affected by the level of righteousness of a person.&#160; If worthy, he will be saved despite the surrounding destruction, but if he is less worthy he might perish together with them.&#160; In this case, it is unclear if all were active sinners or simply not righteous enough.</fn></point>
<point><b>Collective Salvation</b> – According to this approach both Hashem and Avraham wanted the sinners to be punished as it would be unjust for them to be saved.<fn>This issue is one of the motivating factors leading Ma'asei Hashem to understand that the discussion in verse 24 is about the land rather than the wicked of the city.</fn></point>
+
<point><b>Collective Salvation</b> – According to this approach there is no discussion of collective salvation by either Avraham or Hashem; both believe that the sinners to be punished and that it would be unjust for them to be saved.<fn>This issue is one of the motivating factors leading Ma'asei Hashem to understand that the discussion in verse 24 is about the land rather than the wicked of the city.</fn></point>
 
<point><b>Why does Avraham stop at ten?</b> R. Yehudah HaChasid and Radak assert if there are less than 10 righteous people, there is no longer any justification to save the land.<fn>Radak notes that in Yechezkel 22, Hashem seems willing to save the land for even just one good person.&#160; He suggests that there the person spoken of is a totally righteous person who was willing to reform those around him.&#160; If no such people were to be found, though, there is not enough merit to save a city.&#160; As further proof that sometimes the land will be destroyed despite the presence of even very righteous people, Radak points to Yechezkel 14:16 where Hashem says that though Noach, Daniel and Iyyov might be saved, "the land will lay barren".</fn>&#160; Regarding the salvation of the righteous, though, one would think that it should not matter how many or few there were; each should be saved for his own deeds regardless of the presence of others.&#160; Ma'asei Hashem, in fact, asserts that Avraham had planned on asking Hashem to save even one, but Hashem ended the conversation before he could.</point>
 
<point><b>Why does Avraham stop at ten?</b> R. Yehudah HaChasid and Radak assert if there are less than 10 righteous people, there is no longer any justification to save the land.<fn>Radak notes that in Yechezkel 22, Hashem seems willing to save the land for even just one good person.&#160; He suggests that there the person spoken of is a totally righteous person who was willing to reform those around him.&#160; If no such people were to be found, though, there is not enough merit to save a city.&#160; As further proof that sometimes the land will be destroyed despite the presence of even very righteous people, Radak points to Yechezkel 14:16 where Hashem says that though Noach, Daniel and Iyyov might be saved, "the land will lay barren".</fn>&#160; Regarding the salvation of the righteous, though, one would think that it should not matter how many or few there were; each should be saved for his own deeds regardless of the presence of others.&#160; Ma'asei Hashem, in fact, asserts that Avraham had planned on asking Hashem to save even one, but Hashem ended the conversation before he could.</point>
<point><b>What happened at the end?</b> The land and people were destroyed since there were no righteous people.&#160; Lot was saved, not due to his goodness, but out of kindness to Avraham.</point>
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<point><b>What happened at the end?</b> The land and people were destroyed since there were no righteous people.&#160;</point>
 
<point><b>Punishing the land?</b></point>
 
<point><b>Punishing the land?</b></point>
<point><b>Was Lot Righteous?</b> Radak and Ma'asei Hashem both maintain that Lot was not righteous and was only saved because of Avraham.</point>
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<point><b>Was Lot Righteous?</b> Radak and Ma'asei Hashem both maintain that Lot was not righteous and was saved not due tohis goodness, but out of kindness to Avraham.<fn>According to Radak, Avraham had not prayed for him at all, not knowing if he deserved it. Ma'asei hashem, though, maintains that Avraham had intended to pray for him individually but was not given a chance.&#160; Hashem, who knew this desire of Avraham, granted it.</fn></point>
<point><b>Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom?</b> These commentators could explain like <multilink><a href="RashbamBereshit18-17" data-aht="source">Rashbam</a><a href="RashbamBereshit18-17" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:17</a><a href="R. Shemuel b. Meir (Rashbam)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Shemuel b. Meir</a></multilink> that Hashem told Avraham about Sedom because Hashem was going to destroy land which belonged to Avraham.<fn>Radak</fn></point>
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<point><b>Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom?</b> These commentators could explain like <multilink><a href="RashbamBereshit18-17" data-aht="source">Rashbam</a><a href="RashbamBereshit18-17" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:17</a><a href="R. Shemuel b. Meir (Rashbam)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Shemuel b. Meir</a></multilink> that Hashem told Avraham about Sedom because Hashem was going to destroy land which belonged to Avraham. Radak, though, says that Hashem wanted Avraham to question Hashem's justice, attempt to find merits, and through the process to better understand Hashem's judgements.</point>
 
</category>
 
</category>
 
<category name="">Only for the Righteous
 
<category name="">Only for the Righteous

Version as of 02:45, 6 November 2014

Avraham's Prayer for Sedom

Exegetical Approaches

THIS TOPIC IS CURRENTLY IN PROGRESS

Even for Sinners

Avraham wanted all of the people in Sedom to be saved.  Commentators disagree, though, regarding whom Avraham was actively praying for:

For Both Righteous and Wicked

Avraham was praying for everyone in Sedom to be saved, both the righteous and the wicked.

"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"
"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"
Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם"
Relationship between verses 23-25
Collective Punishment
Collective Salvation
Why does Avraham stop at 10?
What happened at the end?
Was Avraham's Prayer Accepted?
Was Lot Righteous?
Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom?

Specifically for the Wicked

Avraham was only praying for the sinners, being certain that Hashem would save the righteous even without his request.

"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"

R. S"R Hirsch does not address the meaning of the word "הַאַף" but seems to be reading the phrase as if written "הַתִּסְפֶּה אַף צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע".  He explains the word "תִּסְפֶּה" as to punish and suggests that Avraham is pointing out that by killing the sinners, the righteous are also, unjustly getting punished. After working hard to reform the wicked,1 it is distressful for them to see the people nonetheless perish.

"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם" – R. Hirsch distinguishes between the terms "לְמַעַן" and "בגלל", asserting that the former means "for the good/sake of" rather than "because of".  Thus, Avraham was praying that all of the people in the city be saved as a reward for the righteous,2 but not due to their righteousness.3
Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם" – This approach maintains that "לַמָּקוֹם" is a general term for all of the people of the city.4
"חָלִלָה לְּךָ מֵעֲשֹׂת כַּדָּבָר הַזֶּה לְהָמִית צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע" – This sentence is problematic for R. Hirsch, since it implies that Avraham is bothered by the possibility that the righteous will actually be killed (and not just distressed by the deaths of others).5
Relationship between verses 23-25 – The three verses all constitute one request and refer only to the injustice that would be done to the righteous through the destruction of the wicked..
Collective Punishment – According to R. S"R Hirsch, Avraham is not arguing about the injustice of collective punishment; it was obvious to him all along that Hashem would not kill the righteous.
Collective Salvation – According to R. Hirsch there is no collective salvation either.  Hashem agrees to save the wicked if there are a portion of righteous in the city, not because they are part of the collective,6 but because the very presence of righteous people proves that the wicked tolerated them and thus were not totally corrupt.7
Why does Avraham stop at 10? R. Hirsch asserts that Avraham understood why Hashem was willing to save the wicked,8 and realized that if there were less than ten righteous, the fact that they were tolerated is no longer such a merit for the wicked, since it is likely that they simply dismissed them as insignificant.9
What happened at the end? Though Hashem accepts Avraham's prayer, apparently there were not enough righteous people to be found to enable a saving of the wicked.
Was Avraham's Prayer Accepted?
Was Lot Righteous? R. Hirsch writes that Lot was "only with difficulty worthy of salvation".  It was Hashem's attribute of mercy rather than justice which saved him.
Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom?

For the Physical Location

Avraham was praying for both the righteous of Sedom, and that Hashem not destroy the land itself.

"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע" – Radak understands "הַאַף" to mean "הגם" and that Avraham is questioning if killing the righteous with the wicked is also part of the sentence of the wicked.10
"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם" – According to all these sources, these words represent a second request, that Hashem should not destroy the city itself,11 but the commentators differ in their understanding of Avraham's reasoning. Radak asserts that Avraham was requesting that the city be saved due to the merit of the righteous people while Ma'asei Hashem maintains that Avraham did not think it just that the righteous should lose their land.12
Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם" – This approach holds that "לַמָּקוֹם" means literally the land itself.
Relationship between verses 23-25 – According to these commentators the verses contain two different requests, that the righteous be saved (verses 23 and 25) and that the land not be destroyed (verse 24).  According to Ma'asei Hashem the common denominator is the demand that justice be done to the worthy people of the city.  However, it is unclear why Avraham goes back and forth between his different requests.
Collective Punishment – This approach might maintain that Hashem had never planned to collectively punish Sedom; there were simply no righteous people to save.  Avraham, however, was unaware of this reality and mistakenly thought that Hashem was going to unjustly destroy them and their land.13
Collective Salvation – According to this approach there is no discussion of collective salvation by either Avraham or Hashem; both believe that the sinners to be punished and that it would be unjust for them to be saved.14
Why does Avraham stop at ten? R. Yehudah HaChasid and Radak assert if there are less than 10 righteous people, there is no longer any justification to save the land.15  Regarding the salvation of the righteous, though, one would think that it should not matter how many or few there were; each should be saved for his own deeds regardless of the presence of others.  Ma'asei Hashem, in fact, asserts that Avraham had planned on asking Hashem to save even one, but Hashem ended the conversation before he could.
What happened at the end? The land and people were destroyed since there were no righteous people. 
Punishing the land?
Was Lot Righteous? Radak and Ma'asei Hashem both maintain that Lot was not righteous and was saved not due tohis goodness, but out of kindness to Avraham.16
Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom? These commentators could explain like RashbamBereshit 18:17About R. Shemuel b. Meir that Hashem told Avraham about Sedom because Hashem was going to destroy land which belonged to Avraham. Radak, though, says that Hashem wanted Avraham to question Hashem's justice, attempt to find merits, and through the process to better understand Hashem's judgements.

Only for the Righteous

Avraham was praying only for the righteous, that they should not die due to the rest of the people's sins.

"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע" – Avraham is questioning the justice of killing the righteous together with the sinners.
"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"

These commentators assume differ in the understanding of this verse:

  • Seforno explains
  • Biur and R. Y"S Reggio say
Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם" – Seforno explains "לַמָּקוֹם" to refer to all of the people in the city whereas the Biur and R. Y"S Reggio explain it to mean the people in the area where the righteous live.
Relationship between verses 23-25
Collective Punishment – R. Y"S Reggio
Collective Salvation
Why does Avraham stop at 10?
What happened at the end?
Was Lot Righteous?
Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom? Seforno explains that