Difference between revisions of "Avraham's Prayer for Sedom/2/en"

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<point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"</b> – <p>These commentators all agree that these words are a continuation of Avraham's original argument, but differ in their specific understanding of the verse:</p>
 
<point><b>"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"</b> – <p>These commentators all agree that these words are a continuation of Avraham's original argument, but differ in their specific understanding of the verse:</p>
 
<ul>
 
<ul>
<li>Seforno explains</li>
+
<li>In contrast to most commentators, Seforno reads these words of Avraham as statement and not a question.&#160; Avraham is telling Hashem, "Even though You do not plan to save the wicked due to the righteous, it is still unfathomable that you should kill the righteous with the wicked..."<fn>He does not read "אַף" to mean also (like R. Y"S Reggio reads the word in verse 23) but rather "even though", and assumes that verses 24-25 are not two distinct statements but one long one.&#160; This read chooses not to read the "ה" as a "ה' השאלה".</fn></li>
 
</ul>
 
</ul>
 
<ul>
 
<ul>
<li>Biur and R. Y"S Reggio say</li>
+
<li>Biur and R. Y"S Reggio instead assert that Avraham realized that Hashem meant to destroy Sedom via a messenger<fn>Avraham saw that the angels who had been speaking with him headed towards Sedom, leading him to conclude that they, rather than Hashem Himself, were sent to fulfill the decree of destruction.</fn> who would not be able to differentiate between good and evil.<fn>They compare this to the משחית in Egypt who also could not differentiate on his own between the Israelites and Egyptians.&#160; when such messengers bring destruction, there is inevitably collective punishment and it is against this that Avraham is arguing.</fn>&#160; He, thus, requests that Hashem save the entire immediate vicinity of the righteous so that they not perish with the wicked.</li>
 
</ul></point>
 
</ul></point>
<point><b>Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם"</b> – Seforno explains "לַמָּקוֹם" to refer to all of the people in the city whereas the Biur and R. Y"S Reggio explain it to mean the people in the area where the righteous live.</point>
+
<point><b>Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם"</b> – Seforno explains "לַמָּקוֹם" to refer to all of the people in the city whereas the Biur and R. Y"S Reggio explain it to mean the people in the specific area inhabited by the righteous.</point>
<point><b>Relationship between verses 23-25</b></point>
+
<point><b>Relationship between verses 23-25</b> – <p>According to this approach all three verses form one argument, that justice demands that the righteous not be killed with the sinners.&#160;</p>
<point><b>Collective Punishment</b> – R. Y"S Reggio</point>
+
<ul>
<point><b>Collective Salvation</b></point>
+
<li>According to Seforno verse 23 is Avraham's opening question and then verses 24-25 together act as a reinforcing statement in which Avraham points out that although he does not expect the sinners to be saved,nonetheless the righteous should not die.</li>
 +
<li>The Biur and R. Y"S Reggio instead read verse 24 as a suggestion of how to implement the justice requested in verse 23, by saving the whole vicinity. In verse 25, Avraham concludes that if his suggestion is not taken, injustice will be done.<fn>According to both these reads there is no back and forth in Avraham's argument, but one point leads to the next.</fn></li>
 +
</ul></point>
 +
<point><b>Collective Punishment</b> – According to the Biur and R. Y"S Reggio, Avraham erroneously thought that Hashem meant to collectively punish the city.&#160; In reality, Hashem knew all along that there were no righteous to save, and thus had no qualms about sending a messenger who would destroy indiscriminately.</point>
 +
<point><b>Collective Salvation</b> – According to most of these commentators, though Avraham was only asking for the worthy to be saved, Hashem told him that He would be even willing to save the wicked if there were sufficient righteous people to merit it. Thus, Hashem was not only willing to avert collective punishment but also willing to collectively save.<fn>According to these commentators, the conversation between Avraham and Hashem switches its focus after Avraham's initial request. Once Avraham realizes Hashem is willing to even save the wicked, he bargains to that end.</fn></point>
 
<point><b>Why does Avraham stop at 10?</b></point>
 
<point><b>Why does Avraham stop at 10?</b></point>
 
<point><b>What happened at the end?</b></point>
 
<point><b>What happened at the end?</b></point>

Version as of 04:11, 6 November 2014

Avraham's Prayer for Sedom

Exegetical Approaches

THIS TOPIC IS CURRENTLY IN PROGRESS

Even for Sinners

Avraham wanted all of the people in Sedom to be saved.  Commentators disagree, though, regarding whom Avraham was actively praying for:

For Both Righteous and Wicked

Avraham was praying for everyone in Sedom to be saved, both the righteous and the wicked.

"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"
"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"
Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם"
Relationship between verses 23-25
Collective Punishment
Collective Salvation
Why does Avraham stop at 10?
What happened at the end?
Was Avraham's Prayer Accepted?
Was Lot Righteous?
Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom?

Specifically for the Wicked

Avraham was only praying for the sinners, being certain that Hashem would save the righteous even without his request.

"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע"

R. S"R Hirsch does not address the meaning of the word "הַאַף" but seems to be reading the phrase as if written "הַתִּסְפֶּה אַף צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע".  He explains the word "תִּסְפֶּה" as to punish and suggests that Avraham is pointing out that by killing the sinners, the righteous are also, unjustly getting punished. After working hard to reform the wicked,1 it is distressful for them to see the people nonetheless perish.

"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם" – R. Hirsch distinguishes between the terms "לְמַעַן" and "בגלל", asserting that the former means "for the good/sake of" rather than "because of".  Thus, Avraham was praying that all of the people in the city be saved as a reward for the righteous,2 but not due to their righteousness.3
Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם" – This approach maintains that "לַמָּקוֹם" is a general term for all of the people of the city.4
"חָלִלָה לְּךָ מֵעֲשֹׂת כַּדָּבָר הַזֶּה לְהָמִית צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע" – This sentence is problematic for R. Hirsch, since it implies that Avraham is bothered by the possibility that the righteous will actually be killed (and not just distressed by the deaths of others).5
Relationship between verses 23-25 – The three verses all constitute one request and refer only to the injustice that would be done to the righteous through the destruction of the wicked..
Collective Punishment – According to R. S"R Hirsch, Avraham is not arguing about the injustice of collective punishment; it was obvious to him all along that Hashem would not kill the righteous.
Collective Salvation – According to R. Hirsch there is no collective salvation either.  Hashem agrees to save the wicked if there are a portion of righteous in the city, not because they are part of the collective,6 but because the very presence of righteous people proves that the wicked tolerated them and thus were not totally corrupt.7
Why does Avraham stop at 10? R. Hirsch asserts that Avraham understood why Hashem was willing to save the wicked,8 and realized that if there were less than ten righteous, the fact that they were tolerated is no longer such a merit for the wicked, since it is likely that they simply dismissed them as insignificant.9
What happened at the end? Though Hashem accepts Avraham's prayer, apparently there were not enough righteous people to be found to enable a saving of the wicked.
Was Avraham's Prayer Accepted?
Was Lot Righteous? R. Hirsch writes that Lot was "only with difficulty worthy of salvation".  It was Hashem's attribute of mercy rather than justice which saved him.
Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom?

For the Physical Location

Avraham was praying for both the righteous of Sedom, and that Hashem not destroy the land itself.

"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע" – Radak understands "הַאַף" to mean "הגם" and that Avraham is questioning if killing the righteous with the wicked is also part of the sentence of the wicked.10
"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם" – According to all these sources, these words represent a second request, that Hashem should not destroy the city itself,11 but the commentators differ in their understanding of Avraham's reasoning. Radak asserts that Avraham was requesting that the city be saved due to the merit of the righteous people while Ma'asei Hashem maintains that Avraham did not think it just that the righteous should lose their land.12
Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם" – This approach holds that "לַמָּקוֹם" means literally the land itself.
Relationship between verses 23-25 – According to these commentators the verses contain two different requests, that the righteous be saved (verses 23 and 25) and that the land not be destroyed (verse 24).  According to Ma'asei Hashem the common denominator is the demand that justice be done to the worthy people of the city.  However, it is unclear why Avraham goes back and forth between his different requests.
Collective Punishment – This approach might maintain that Hashem had never planned to collectively punish Sedom; there were simply no righteous people to save.  Avraham, however, was unaware of this reality and mistakenly thought that Hashem was going to unjustly destroy them and their land.13
Collective Salvation – According to this approach there is no discussion of collective salvation by either Avraham or Hashem; both believe that the sinners to be punished and that it would be unjust for them to be saved.14
Why does Avraham stop at ten? R. Yehudah HaChasid and Radak assert if there are less than 10 righteous people, there is no longer any justification to save the land.15  Regarding the salvation of the righteous, though, one would think that it should not matter how many or few there were; each should be saved for his own deeds regardless of the presence of others.  Ma'asei Hashem, in fact, asserts that Avraham had planned on asking Hashem to save even one, but Hashem ended the conversation before he could.
What happened at the end? The land and people were destroyed since there were no righteous people.
Punishing the land?
Was Lot Righteous? Radak and Ma'asei Hashem both maintain that Lot was not righteous and was saved not due tohis goodness, but out of kindness to Avraham.16
Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom? These commentators could explain like RashbamBereshit 18:17About R. Shemuel b. Meir that Hashem told Avraham about Sedom because Hashem was going to destroy land which belonged to Avraham. Radak, though, says that Hashem wanted Avraham to question Hashem's justice, attempt to find merits, and through the process to better understand Hashem's judgements.

Only for the Righteous

Avraham was praying only for the righteous, that they should not die due to the rest of the people's sins.

"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע" – R. Y"S Reggio understands "הַאַף" to mean "הגם" and that Avraham is questioning the justice of killing the righteous together with the sinners.17
"הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה וְלֹא תִשָּׂא לַמָּקוֹם לְמַעַן חֲמִשִּׁים הַצַּדִּיקִם"

These commentators all agree that these words are a continuation of Avraham's original argument, but differ in their specific understanding of the verse:

  • In contrast to most commentators, Seforno reads these words of Avraham as statement and not a question.  Avraham is telling Hashem, "Even though You do not plan to save the wicked due to the righteous, it is still unfathomable that you should kill the righteous with the wicked..."18
  • Biur and R. Y"S Reggio instead assert that Avraham realized that Hashem meant to destroy Sedom via a messenger19 who would not be able to differentiate between good and evil.20  He, thus, requests that Hashem save the entire immediate vicinity of the righteous so that they not perish with the wicked.
Meaning of "לַמָּקוֹם" – Seforno explains "לַמָּקוֹם" to refer to all of the people in the city whereas the Biur and R. Y"S Reggio explain it to mean the people in the specific area inhabited by the righteous.
Relationship between verses 23-25

According to this approach all three verses form one argument, that justice demands that the righteous not be killed with the sinners. 

  • According to Seforno verse 23 is Avraham's opening question and then verses 24-25 together act as a reinforcing statement in which Avraham points out that although he does not expect the sinners to be saved,nonetheless the righteous should not die.
  • The Biur and R. Y"S Reggio instead read verse 24 as a suggestion of how to implement the justice requested in verse 23, by saving the whole vicinity. In verse 25, Avraham concludes that if his suggestion is not taken, injustice will be done.21
Collective Punishment – According to the Biur and R. Y"S Reggio, Avraham erroneously thought that Hashem meant to collectively punish the city.  In reality, Hashem knew all along that there were no righteous to save, and thus had no qualms about sending a messenger who would destroy indiscriminately.
Collective Salvation – According to most of these commentators, though Avraham was only asking for the worthy to be saved, Hashem told him that He would be even willing to save the wicked if there were sufficient righteous people to merit it. Thus, Hashem was not only willing to avert collective punishment but also willing to collectively save.22
Why does Avraham stop at 10?
What happened at the end?
Was Lot Righteous?
Why does Hashem tell Avraham about Sedom? Seforno explains that