Difference between revisions of "Philosophy:Collective Punishment/2"
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<li><b>Sin of Spies</b> – R"Y Bekhor Shor explains that only those of age to enter the military were punished because they were the ones who complained, being afraid to fight the Canaanites.</li> | <li><b>Sin of Spies</b> – R"Y Bekhor Shor explains that only those of age to enter the military were punished because they were the ones who complained, being afraid to fight the Canaanites.</li> | ||
<li><b>Moshe's discussion during Korach's rebellion</b> – According to R. Yosef Bekhor Shor, Moshe mistakenly believed that Hashem planned to kill the innocent "congregation of Israel" , but in fact Hashem had really referred to the guilty  "congregation of Korach" alone.  Rashi, in contrast, presents Hashem as originally planning to punish even the innocent, but when Moshe reminds Him that since he knows men's thoughts, there is no need for collective punishment, Hashem agrees. See <a href="Dialogue with the Divine During Korach's Rebellion" data-aht="page">Dialogue with the Divine During Korach's Rebellion</a> for elaboration.</li> | <li><b>Moshe's discussion during Korach's rebellion</b> – According to R. Yosef Bekhor Shor, Moshe mistakenly believed that Hashem planned to kill the innocent "congregation of Israel" , but in fact Hashem had really referred to the guilty  "congregation of Korach" alone.  Rashi, in contrast, presents Hashem as originally planning to punish even the innocent, but when Moshe reminds Him that since he knows men's thoughts, there is no need for collective punishment, Hashem agrees. See <a href="Dialogue with the Divine During Korach's Rebellion" data-aht="page">Dialogue with the Divine During Korach's Rebellion</a> for elaboration.</li> | ||
| − | <li><b>City of Idolaters</b> –</li> | + | <li><b>City of Idolaters</b> – </li> |
<li><b>Achan and death of the 36</b> – This approach could explain either that the 36 men were accomplices to Achan, helping him to hide the booty or the like, or that they had sinned in some other capacity and were being punished for those crimes.</li> | <li><b>Achan and death of the 36</b> – This approach could explain either that the 36 men were accomplices to Achan, helping him to hide the booty or the like, or that they had sinned in some other capacity and were being punished for those crimes.</li> | ||
<li><b>Plague in time of David</b> – As the story opens with the fact that "וַיֹּסֶף אַף י"י לַחֲרוֹת בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל", these sources can easily explain that the nation had done something unconnected to David's deeds which had incurred the wrath of Hashem, and it was for this that they were plagued.<fn>See <multilink><a href="RadakShemuelII24-1" data-aht="source">Radak</a><a href="RadakShemuelII24-1" data-aht="source">Shemuel II 24:1</a></multilink> who explains the story in this manner.</fn></li> | <li><b>Plague in time of David</b> – As the story opens with the fact that "וַיֹּסֶף אַף י"י לַחֲרוֹת בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל", these sources can easily explain that the nation had done something unconnected to David's deeds which had incurred the wrath of Hashem, and it was for this that they were plagued.<fn>See <multilink><a href="RadakShemuelII24-1" data-aht="source">Radak</a><a href="RadakShemuelII24-1" data-aht="source">Shemuel II 24:1</a></multilink> who explains the story in this manner.</fn></li> | ||
</ul></point> | </ul></point> | ||
| + | <point><b>Biblical Cases of vicarious punishment<br data-mce-bogus="1"></b> – <br/></point> | ||
<point><b>What about babies?</b> As it is difficult to say that infants or toddlers should be culpable for any sin, this approach must explain their deaths/punishments as being of a different nature, related to the principle of "פֹּקֵד עֲוֹן אָבֹת עַל בָּנִים", that children at times are punished for the sins of their parents.<fn>R. Saadia brings a somewhat radical approach which suggests that before the flood there were no children, obviating the problem of infants dying in the deluge.  This, of course, would not explain the perishing of any children in Sedom, or other punitive plagues described later in Tanakh.</fn>  For a variety of approaches to this principle see <a href="Are Children Punished for Parents' Sins" data-aht="page">Are Children Punished for Parents' Sins?</a></point> | <point><b>What about babies?</b> As it is difficult to say that infants or toddlers should be culpable for any sin, this approach must explain their deaths/punishments as being of a different nature, related to the principle of "פֹּקֵד עֲוֹן אָבֹת עַל בָּנִים", that children at times are punished for the sins of their parents.<fn>R. Saadia brings a somewhat radical approach which suggests that before the flood there were no children, obviating the problem of infants dying in the deluge.  This, of course, would not explain the perishing of any children in Sedom, or other punitive plagues described later in Tanakh.</fn>  For a variety of approaches to this principle see <a href="Are Children Punished for Parents' Sins" data-aht="page">Are Children Punished for Parents' Sins?</a></point> | ||
<point><b>Divine vs. human retribution</b> – These sources do not address the issue.  <br/> | <point><b>Divine vs. human retribution</b> – These sources do not address the issue.  <br/> | ||
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</ul></point> | </ul></point> | ||
<point><b>Biblical cases</b> – This position is supported by the many cases in Tanakh in which people appear to be punished collectively. In many of these cases, these commentators, nonetheless, attempt to show how there too those who were punished were actually deserving.</point> | <point><b>Biblical cases</b> – This position is supported by the many cases in Tanakh in which people appear to be punished collectively. In many of these cases, these commentators, nonetheless, attempt to show how there too those who were punished were actually deserving.</point> | ||
| + | <point><b>Vicarious punishment - the case of Achan and David</b> – According to Ralbag, Abarbanel and Malbim,</point> | ||
<point><b>Collective salvation?</b> Just as one individual's sin can harm the nation as a whole, one person's merits can save them. This makes sense if one thinks of the nation as being one body; the actions  of any part, whether god or bad, affect the rest.  Similarly, just as an undeserving individual might get caught up in a general catastrophe,  a wicked person might nonetheless benefit from general good fortune.</point> | <point><b>Collective salvation?</b> Just as one individual's sin can harm the nation as a whole, one person's merits can save them. This makes sense if one thinks of the nation as being one body; the actions  of any part, whether god or bad, affect the rest.  Similarly, just as an undeserving individual might get caught up in a general catastrophe,  a wicked person might nonetheless benefit from general good fortune.</point> | ||
<point><b>Individual providence?</b><ul> | <point><b>Individual providence?</b><ul> | ||
Version as of 04:08, 24 July 2015
Fatal 76: Opening and ending tag mismatch: br line 27 and b
27: <point><b>Biblical Cases of vicarious punishment<br data-mce-bogus="1"></b> – <br/></point>
27: <point><b>Biblical Cases of vicarious punishment<br data-mce-bogus="1"></b> – <br/></point>