Difference between revisions of "Philosophy:Collective Punishment/2"

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<li><b>Plague in time of David</b> – As the story opens with the fact that "וַיֹּסֶף אַף י"י לַחֲרוֹת בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל", these sources can easily explain that the nation had done something, unconnected to David's deeds, which had incurred the wrath of Hashem, and it was for this that they were plagued.<fn>See&#160;<multilink><a href="RadakShemuelII24-1" data-aht="source">Radak</a><a href="RadakShemuelII24-1" data-aht="source">Shemuel II 24:1</a></multilink> who explains the story in this manner.</fn></li>
 
<li><b>Plague in time of David</b> – As the story opens with the fact that "וַיֹּסֶף אַף י"י לַחֲרוֹת בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל", these sources can easily explain that the nation had done something, unconnected to David's deeds, which had incurred the wrath of Hashem, and it was for this that they were plagued.<fn>See&#160;<multilink><a href="RadakShemuelII24-1" data-aht="source">Radak</a><a href="RadakShemuelII24-1" data-aht="source">Shemuel II 24:1</a></multilink> who explains the story in this manner.</fn></li>
 
</ul></point>
 
</ul></point>
<point><b>What about babies?</b> As it is difficult to say that infants or toddlers should be culpable for any sin, this approach must explain their deaths/punishments as being of a different nature, related to the principle of "פֹּקֵד עֲוֹן אָבֹת עַל בָּנִים", that children at times are punished for the sins of their parents.<fn>R. Saadia brings a somewhat radical approach which suggests that before the flood there were no children, obviating the problem of infants dying in the deluge.&#160;&#160; This, of course, would not explain the perishing of any children in Sedom, or other punitive plagues.</fn>&#160; For a variety of approaches to this principle, see <a href="Are Children Punished for Parents' Sins" data-aht="page">Are Children Punished for Parents' Sins?</a></point>
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<point><b>What about babies?</b> As it is difficult to say that infants or toddlers should be culpable for any sin, this approach must explain their deaths/punishments as being of a different nature, related to the principle of "פֹּקֵד עֲוֹן אָבֹת עַל בָּנִים", that children at times are punished for the sins of their parents.<fn>R. Saadia brings a somewhat radical approach which suggests that before the flood there were no children, obviating the problem of infants dying in the deluge.&#160; This, of course, would not explain the perishing of any children in Sedom, or other punitive plagues described later in Tanakh.</fn>&#160; For a variety of approaches to this principle, see <a href="Are Children Punished for Parents' Sins" data-aht="page">Are Children Punished for Parents' Sins?</a></point>
<point><b>Collective punishment</b></point>
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<point><b>Divine vs. human retribution</b> – According to this approach, there is no difference between Divine and human retribution; collective punishment is never allowed.&#160; As such,</point>
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<point><b>Collective salvation</b></point>
 
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</category>
 
<category>Slightly Guilty also Punished
 
<category>Slightly Guilty also Punished
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<p>Sometimes Hashem collectively punishes the entire group and the innocent suffer together with the guilty.</p>
 
<p>Sometimes Hashem collectively punishes the entire group and the innocent suffer together with the guilty.</p>
 
<mekorot>R. Saadia Gaon, Ralbag, Abarbanel, Malbim, Netziv</mekorot>
 
<mekorot>R. Saadia Gaon, Ralbag, Abarbanel, Malbim, Netziv</mekorot>
<point><b>Why is this justified?</b></point>
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<point><b>Natural order or intentional?</b></point>
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<point><b>Why is this justified?</b><ul>
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<li>Reward in world to come</li>
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<li>One body</li>
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</ul></point>
 
<point><b>Individual providence?</b></point>
 
<point><b>Individual providence?</b></point>
 
<point><b>Majority vs. minority of sinners?</b></point>
 
<point><b>Majority vs. minority of sinners?</b></point>

Version as of 00:04, 21 July 2015

Collective Punishment

Exegetical Approaches

This topic is currently in progress

Only the Sinners are Punished

Hashem only punishes the deserving and does not collectively punish anyone for someone else's crime.

Divine justice? This position is motivated by the understanding that justice demands that each person be punished for their own sins and not those of another.
Individual providence? This approach must maintain that Hashem watches over every being individually, and knows each of their actions so He can reward and punish each according to their deeds.
Reward and Punishment
Biblical Cases of Collective Punishment – These commentators try to explain away all the cases in Tanakh where there seems to be collective punishment by suggesting that in each instance the people who suffered were in fact guilty:
  • The flood – These sources assert that the entire world was destroyed in the flood because, with the exception of Noach, everyone, animals included, had sinned.1
  • Sedom – Rashi points out that the verse specifies that "כָּל הָעָם מִקָּצֶה" surrounded Lot's house, proving that there was not even one righteous man amongst them.2 R"Y Bekhor Shor adds that had there been, Hashem would have saved them individually;3 Avraham's complaint, "הַאַף תִּסְפֶּה צַדִּיק עִם רָשָׁע" was based on erroneous understanding of Hashem's plan.4 
  • Plague of first-borns – Rashi explains that even the firstborns of maidservants and captives were killed because they, too, had enslaved the Israelites and were happy in their sorrow.
  • Sin of golden calf – According to Rashi, drawing off Bavli Yoma 66, Hashem plagued only those who were guilty or worshiping the calf but who had escaped punishment by the Levites on technical grounds that they had not been warned beforehand.
  • Sin of Spies – R"Y Bekhor Shor explains that only those of age to enter the military were punished because they were the ones who complained, being afraid to fight the Canaanites.
  • City of Idolaters
  • Achan and death of the 36 – This approach could explain either that the 36 men were accomplices to Achan, helping him to hide the booty or the like, or that they had sinned in some other capacity and were being punished for those crimes.
  • Plague in time of David – As the story opens with the fact that "וַיֹּסֶף אַף י"י לַחֲרוֹת בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל", these sources can easily explain that the nation had done something, unconnected to David's deeds, which had incurred the wrath of Hashem, and it was for this that they were plagued.5
What about babies? As it is difficult to say that infants or toddlers should be culpable for any sin, this approach must explain their deaths/punishments as being of a different nature, related to the principle of "פֹּקֵד עֲוֹן אָבֹת עַל בָּנִים", that children at times are punished for the sins of their parents.6  For a variety of approaches to this principle, see Are Children Punished for Parents' Sins?
Divine vs. human retribution – According to this approach, there is no difference between Divine and human retribution; collective punishment is never allowed.  As such,
Collective salvation

Slightly Guilty also Punished

When Hashem inflicts punishment, those who are totally innocent are never included.  However, individuals who are guilty by association, or culpable to even a small degree, might be included in the punishment of a worse sinner.

Sources:Bavli ShabbatShabbat 54b-55aAbout the Bavli, Radak, Rif on Yehoshua, Abarbanel on Korach

Even the Innocent Punished

Sometimes Hashem collectively punishes the entire group and the innocent suffer together with the guilty.

Sources:R. Saadia Gaon, Ralbag, Abarbanel, Malbim, Netziv
Natural order or intentional?
Why is this justified?
  • Reward in world to come
  • One body
Individual providence?
Majority vs. minority of sinners?
Collective salvation?
Can humans also collectively punish?