Difference between revisions of "Concerns Regarding the Monarchy/2"
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<category>Rejection of Hashem as Savior | <category>Rejection of Hashem as Savior | ||
| + | <p><multilink><a href="BavliSanhedrin20b" data-aht="source">R. Eliezer in Bavli Sanhedrin</a><a href="BavliSanhedrin20b" data-aht="source">Sanhedrin 20b</a><a href="Talmud Bavli" data-aht="parshan">About the Bavli</a></multilink> according to <multilink><a href="RashiSanhedrin20b" data-aht="source">Rashi</a><a href="RashiSanhedrin20b" data-aht="source">Sanhedrin 20b</a><a href="R. Shelomo Yitzchaki (Rashi)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Shelomo Yitzchaki</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="RadakShemuelI8-5" data-aht="source">Radak</a><a href="RadakShemuelI8-5" data-aht="source">Shemuel I 8:5</a><a href="R. David Kimchi (Radak)" data-aht="parshan">About R. David Kimchi</a></multilink>, Prof. Y. Elitzur</p> | ||
</category> | </category> | ||
<category>Rejection of the Shofet | <category>Rejection of the Shofet | ||
| + | <mekorot> | ||
| + | <multilink><a href="RambamHilkhotMelakhim1-2" data-aht="source">Rambam</a><a href="RambamHilkhotMelakhim1-2" data-aht="source">Hilkhot Melakhim 1:2</a><a href="R. Moshe b. Maimon (Rambam, Maimonides)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Moshe b. Maimon</a></multilink>, | ||
| + | </mekorot> | ||
</category> | </category> | ||
<category>Rejection of Torah Law | <category>Rejection of Torah Law | ||
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<p>The Children of Israel needed a fighter but for the judgement they had Shemuel and his sons.</p> | <p>The Children of Israel needed a fighter but for the judgement they had Shemuel and his sons.</p> | ||
<mekorot> | <mekorot> | ||
| − | <multilink><a href="Ran11" data-aht="source">Ran</a><a href="Ran11" data-aht="source">Derashot HaRan 11</a><a href="R. Nissim Gerondi (Ran)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Nissim Gerondi</a></multilink>, | + | <multilink><a href="Ran11" data-aht="source">Ran</a><a href="Ran11" data-aht="source">Derashot HaRan 11</a><a href="R. Nissim Gerondi (Ran)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Nissim Gerondi</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="MalbimShemuelI8-6" data-aht="source">Malbim's second option</a><a href="MalbimShemuelI8-6" data-aht="source">Shemuel I 8:6</a><a href="R. Meir Leibush Weiser (Malbim)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Meir Leibush Weiser</a></multilink> |
| − | |||
</mekorot> | </mekorot> | ||
<point><b>The sin</b> – Both the Ran and Malbim say that this was problematic since there were judges at this time like Shemuel and his sons. According to them asking for a king was not nice to Shemuel because he still can judge them. The Children of Israel wanted that the judgment will come from the side of the kingship as oppose to it being separate having one do the fighting and one doing the judgment.</point> | <point><b>The sin</b> – Both the Ran and Malbim say that this was problematic since there were judges at this time like Shemuel and his sons. According to them asking for a king was not nice to Shemuel because he still can judge them. The Children of Israel wanted that the judgment will come from the side of the kingship as oppose to it being separate having one do the fighting and one doing the judgment.</point> | ||
Version as of 02:15, 16 November 2016
Problem With the King
Exegetical Approaches
Overview
Rejection of Hashem as Savior
R. Eliezer in Bavli Sanhedrin according to Rashi, Radak, Prof. Y. Elitzur
Rejection of the Shofet
Sources: Rambam,
Rejection of Torah Law
The request was problematic since the people desired a king who would be like the other nations and not subject to the laws of Torah.
The Actions of the King
The Children of Israel asked for a king whose actions are bad.
Specific Actions
Some specific actions of the king were wrong.
He Will Do All He Wants
The Children of Israel asked for a king that will do all he wants and won't go according to Hashem.
The sin – The Children of Israel asked for a king that will do all he wants and make his own laws for all he wants. Instead the Children of Israel were suppose to ask for a king that will obey to the Torah's laws.
"Like all the nations" – According to these commentators the other nations at this time had the king making the rules and they can change whatever they want and make all the rules for their benefit.
The verse in Devarim – The three commentators all mention the verses in Devarim as a proof text for the approach. The Torah says that when the Children of Israel want a king like all the other nations so they can't appoint a king that does all he wants but rather a king that is Jewish and keeps the laws. He cannot acquire a lot of horses, gold, and wives for himself and has to write a Torah so that he would not do all he wants but go according to the Torah.
Real sin – We don't hear an explicit mention that the Children of Israel are asking for this type of king though there is another verse after which says that the Children of Israel are rejecting Hashem suggesting that they are making there own laws and rejecting Hashem's laws.
Mishpat HaMelukha – The opinion in Abarbanel says that Hashem is telling them what the bad king will do hoping that the nation will retreat but it didn't help as the Children of Israel still agree to having a king like that.
Appointing a king at the end – This approach doesn't explain why Hashem did appoint a king at the end though maybe if the Children of Israel changed their mind and wanted a good king so Hashem gave them.
He Will Worship Idolatry
The Children of Israel asked for a king that will worship idolatry and not Hashem.
Sources: Rabbi Nehorai in Sifre Devarim
The sin – According to Rabbi Nehorai the sin was that they only asked for a king so he would worship idolatry and make them worship idolatry and not so he can go to battle or judge them.
"Like all the nations" – According to this like the nations means the religion of the nations meaning idolatry and this is Rabbi Nehorai's proof that he brings in the Sifre.
Verses in Devarim – The Sifre says explicitly that the verse in Devarim is a shame for the Children of Israel and that it is a bad thing to do even though according to them it is a mitzvah.
Real sin – The verses after say explicitly that the Children of Israel are rejecting Hashem and that they have been worshiping idolatry since they came out of Egypt proving the presence of this sin. This is probably the motivation of Rabbi Nehorai to take this position. Though the verses before do not say explicitly that they wanted an idol worshiping king but rather that he would judge.
Appointing a king at the end – The Abarbanel asks why does Hashem appoint a king at the end if he is going to worship idolatry one of the worst sins. Nobody answers this question of Abarbanel.
General Purpose
The whole prupose of the king was wrong.
A Judge Not a Fighter
The Children of Israel needed a judge but the fighting Hashem can do.
Sources: Radak
The sin – Radak's opinion is that Hashem fought for them the wars so they did not need a fighter. Instead the Children of Israel needed a judge that would teach them the Torah's laws since Shemuel was old already.
"Like all the nations" – Radak says that all the other nations do need a fighter because they do not believe in Hashem that he will fight for them. The Children of Israel on the other hand do not need fighter so them wanting to be like the nations is bad.
Verses in Devarim – The verses in Devarim presumably are talking about a judge according to Radak. This maybe supported by the prohibition to have a lot of horses and instead to have a Sefer Torah so he can teach.
Real sin – The first time the Children of Israel only ask for a king that will judge and already then, Shemuel and Hashem think it is a bad idea and not only the second time when they ask for a fighter. These verses do not work well with this opinion but possibly the verse just shortened and did not bring the whole speech of the nation.
Appointing a king at the end – It is unclear why Hashem would appoint a king especially since we do not hear of too many kings that judge the nation and almost all are fighting all the time.
Hashem's speech to Shemuel – Hashem's conversation with Shemuel also support that the Children of Israel are rejecting Hashem's fighting in a miraculous way but rather they want a fighter.
A Fighter Not a Judge
The Children of Israel needed a fighter but for the judgement they had Shemuel and his sons.
The sin – Both the Ran and Malbim say that this was problematic since there were judges at this time like Shemuel and his sons. According to them asking for a king was not nice to Shemuel because he still can judge them. The Children of Israel wanted that the judgment will come from the side of the kingship as oppose to it being separate having one do the fighting and one doing the judgment.
"Like all the nations" – The commentators do not explain what the Children of Israel mean here. It is possible to say that maybe the Children of Israel mean that all the other nations have the kingship do both the wars and the judgment.
Verses in Devarim – The verses in Devarim are just simply commandments for the king that he has to keep and they do not show any purpose for what the king has to do.
Real sin – This approach has no difficulties with the question of the Children of Israel and it is quite obvious that the nation asked for a king that would judge them and not to fight.
Appointing a king at the end – As the Ran points out after Shemuel tells them what the king can do to them they change their question and ask for a king that would fight. Possibly this is why Hashem changed his mind and appointed a king even though.
Hashem's speech to Shemuel – Hashem's conversation with Shemuel also support that the problem was in the judgment as Shemuel adds that it was bad that they wanted a king to judge.
Being Like the Nations
The Children of Israel wanted a king only to be like the other nations.
The sin – This approach says that the king the Children of Israel asked for was supposed to be like the nations and not like a king from the Children of Israel. The way the nation asked for the king was bad and not having the king itself.
"Like all the nations" – These are the words that are used to support this approach that the Children of Israel are focusing on that it is like the nations.
Verses in Devarim – The Abarbanel asks on this approach from the verses in Devarim were the commandment is that when they go in to the land and want a king "like all the nation" they are allowed to appoint a king. From these verses it sounds like that it is totally fine to want a king like all the other nations. It is possible to answer that Devarim is actually rejecting a king like that and that is why it commands after to get a king especially not from the Non-Jews.
Hashem's speech to Shemuel – The Abarbanel raises another question. When Shemuel and Hashem say that is bad neither one mentions that it is bad that they wanted a king like the nations. Rather just that there was a problem with having a king that would judge them or a king that would reject Hashem. If there was a real problem having a king like that it would seem that Shemuel and Hashem would talk about that.
Appointing a king at the end – Maybe Hashem does appoint a king for them but not one that is like all the nations. Instead like in Devarim Hashem appoints a king that is Jewish specifically and not an outsider.
Wrong Time
The Children of Israel do not need a king at this time because Hashem is fighting for them.
The sin – Rabbi Yehuda in the Sifre does not give details to why this was a wrong time though the Ramban and Malbim explain. They say that at this time Hashem was fighting for the Children of Israel and he was doing to them miracles. When Hashem is doing all of the work you do not need a king but after when Hashem does not interact directly then one needs a king that can fight all the other nations.
"Like all the nations" – This approach presumably explains the verse that everybody else has a king that fights for them since they do not believe in Hashem but for the Children of Israel they did not need a king since they do believe in Hashem so they should not be like the nations.
Verses in Devarim – It is unclear how to explain the verses in Devarim. Although it is possible to say that when the verse says that after one conquers the land and what settles down in it one can ask for a king, it is referring after the time of Shemuel when one really does need a king, but it is not obvious.
Real sin – The verses do not raise at all that this is a wrong time for asking a king. It is unclear where they get this answer from.
Hashem's speech to Shemuel – Hashem's speech to Shemuel works well with this approach. According to this, the nation is rejecting Hashem because they are asking for a king when Hashem is still directly fighting for them as oppose to after.
Appointing a king at the end – The Ramban in his commentary explains that from the beginning Hashem decided not to give the kingship to Shaul since it was the wrong time. According to him the real kingship only started when it was suppose to after Shaul but Hashem gave a non staying kingship from the wrong tribe to Shaul.
