Difference between revisions of "Philosophy:Collective Punishment/2"

From AlHaTorah.org
Jump to navigation Jump to search
m
m
Line 9: Line 9:
 
<category>Only the Sinners are Punished
 
<category>Only the Sinners are Punished
 
<p>Hashem only punishes the deserving and does not collectively punish anyone for someone else's crime.</p>
 
<p>Hashem only punishes the deserving and does not collectively punish anyone for someone else's crime.</p>
<mekorot><multilink><a href="BavliSanhedrin108a" data-aht="source">Bavli Sanhedrin</a><a href="BavliSanhedrin108a" data-aht="source">Sanhedrin 108a</a><a href="Talmud Bavli" data-aht="parshan">About the Bavli</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="BereshitRabbah28-8" data-aht="source">Bereshit Rabbah</a><a href="BereshitRabbah28-8" data-aht="source">28:8</a><a href="Bereshit Rabbah" data-aht="parshan">About Bereshit Rabbah</a></multilink>,&#160;<multilink><a href="TanchumaNoach5" data-aht="source">Tanchuma</a><a href="TanchumaNoach5" data-aht="source">Noach 5</a><a href="TanchumaKorach7" data-aht="source">Korach 7</a><a href="Tanchuma" data-aht="parshan">About the Tanchuma</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="TanchumaBuberNoach18" data-aht="source">Tanchuma (Buber)</a><a href="TanchumaBuberNoach18" data-aht="source">Noach 18</a><a href="Tanchuma" data-aht="parshan">About the Tanchuma</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="RashiBemidbar16-22" data-aht="source">Rashi</a><a href="RashiBereshit6-7" data-aht="source">Bereshit 6:7</a><a href="RashiBereshit6-12" data-aht="source">Bereshit 6:12</a><a href="RashiBereshit19-4" data-aht="source">Bereshit 19:4</a><a href="RashiShemot12-29" data-aht="source">Shemot 12:29</a><a href="RashiShemot32-35" data-aht="source">Shemot 32:35</a><a href="RashiBemidbar16-22" data-aht="source">Bemidbar 16:22</a><a href="R. Shelomo Yitzchaki (Rashi)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Shelomo Yitzchaki</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="RYosefBekhorShorBereshit6-912-13" data-aht="source">R Yosef Bekhor Shor</a><a href="RYosefBekhorShorBereshit6-912-13" data-aht="source">Bereshit 6:9,12-13</a><a href="RYosefBekhorShorBemidbar14-29" data-aht="source">Bemidbar 14:29</a><a href="RYosefBekhorShorBemidbar16-1922" data-aht="source">Bemidbar 16:19, 22</a><a href="R. Yosef Bekhor Shor" data-aht="parshan">About R. Yosef Bekhor Shor</a></multilink></mekorot>
+
<mekorot><multilink><a href="BavliSanhedrin108a" data-aht="source">Bavli Sanhedrin</a><a href="BavliSanhedrin108a" data-aht="source">Sanhedrin 108a</a><a href="Talmud Bavli" data-aht="parshan">About the Bavli</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="BereshitRabbah28-8" data-aht="source">Bereshit Rabbah</a><a href="BereshitRabbah28-8" data-aht="source">28:8</a><a href="Bereshit Rabbah" data-aht="parshan">About Bereshit Rabbah</a></multilink>,&#160;<multilink><a href="TanchumaNoach5" data-aht="source">Tanchuma</a><a href="TanchumaNoach5" data-aht="source">Noach 5</a><a href="TanchumaKorach7" data-aht="source">Korach 7</a><a href="Tanchuma" data-aht="parshan">About the Tanchuma</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="TanchumaBuberNoach18" data-aht="source">Tanchuma (Buber)</a><a href="TanchumaBuberNoach18" data-aht="source">Noach 18</a><a href="Tanchuma" data-aht="parshan">About the Tanchuma</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="RashiBemidbar16-22" data-aht="source">Rashi</a><a href="RashiBereshit6-7" data-aht="source">Bereshit 6:7</a><a href="RashiBereshit6-12" data-aht="source">Bereshit 6:12</a><a href="RashiBereshit19-4" data-aht="source">Bereshit 19:4</a><a href="RashiShemot11-5" data-aht="source">Shemot 11:5</a><a href="RashiShemot12-29" data-aht="source">Shemot 12:29</a><a href="RashiShemot32-35" data-aht="source">Shemot 32:35</a><a href="RashiBemidbar16-22" data-aht="source">Bemidbar 16:22</a><a href="R. Shelomo Yitzchaki (Rashi)" data-aht="parshan">About R. Shelomo Yitzchaki</a></multilink>, <multilink><a href="RYosefBekhorShorBereshit6-912-13" data-aht="source">R Yosef Bekhor Shor</a><a href="RYosefBekhorShorBereshit6-912-13" data-aht="source">Bereshit 6:9,12-13</a><a href="RYosefBekhorShorBemidbar14-29" data-aht="source">Bemidbar 14:29</a><a href="RYosefBekhorShorBemidbar16-1922" data-aht="source">Bemidbar 16:19, 22</a><a href="R. Yosef Bekhor Shor" data-aht="parshan">About R. Yosef Bekhor Shor</a></multilink></mekorot>
 
<point><b>Divine justice?</b> This position is motivated by the understanding that justice demands that each person be punished for their own crime and not that of another.</point>
 
<point><b>Divine justice?</b> This position is motivated by the understanding that justice demands that each person be punished for their own crime and not that of another.</point>
 
<point><b>Individual providence?</b> This approach must maintain that Hashem watches over every being individually, and knows each of their actions so He can reward and punish each according to their deeds.</point>
 
<point><b>Individual providence?</b> This approach must maintain that Hashem watches over every being individually, and knows each of their actions so He can reward and punish each according to their deeds.</point>
<point><b>Biblical Cases of Collective Punishment</b><ul>
+
<point><b>Biblical Cases of Collective Punishment</b> – This approach tries to explain away all the cases in Tanakh where there seems to be collective punishment:<br/>
 +
<ul>
 
<li><b>The flood</b> – These sources assert that the entire world was destroyed in the flood because, with the exception of Noach, everyone, animals included, had sinned.<fn>R"Y Bekhor Shor agrees that Noach was the only individual who walked uprightly, but explains the destruction of the world and animals differently.&#160; Their demise was not due to their guilt but because their only purpose in creation was to serve man; thus, when mankind was destroyed so were they.&#160; See <multilink><a href="BereshitRabbah28-6" data-aht="source">Bereshit Rabbah</a><a href="BereshitRabbah28-6" data-aht="source">28:6</a><a href="Bereshit Rabbah" data-aht="parshan">About Bereshit Rabbah</a></multilink>.</fn></li>
 
<li><b>The flood</b> – These sources assert that the entire world was destroyed in the flood because, with the exception of Noach, everyone, animals included, had sinned.<fn>R"Y Bekhor Shor agrees that Noach was the only individual who walked uprightly, but explains the destruction of the world and animals differently.&#160; Their demise was not due to their guilt but because their only purpose in creation was to serve man; thus, when mankind was destroyed so were they.&#160; See <multilink><a href="BereshitRabbah28-6" data-aht="source">Bereshit Rabbah</a><a href="BereshitRabbah28-6" data-aht="source">28:6</a><a href="Bereshit Rabbah" data-aht="parshan">About Bereshit Rabbah</a></multilink>.</fn></li>
<li><b>Sedom</b> – Rashi points out that the verse specifies that "כָּל הָעָם מִקָּצֶה" surrounded Lot's house, proving that there was not even one righteous man amongst them.<fn>See similalry Ibn Ezra who understands Hashem's words "וְאֶרְאֶה הַכְּצַעֲקָתָהּ הַבָּאָה אֵלַי עָשׂוּ <b>כָּלָה</b>" to mean that Hashem was to check if <b>all</b> of Sedom's inhabitants had done evil.</fn> R"Y Bekhor Shor asserts that had there been, Hashem would have saved them individually.<fn>Hashem was not willing to save the wicked if there were fewer than ten righteous in the city, but He would have still saved the righteous themselves.</fn></li>
+
<li><b>Sedom</b> – Rashi points out that the verse specifies that "כָּל הָעָם מִקָּצֶה" surrounded Lot's house, proving that there was not even one righteous man amongst them.<fn>See, similarly, <multilink><a href="IbnEzraBereshit18-21" data-aht="source">Ibn Ezra</a><a href="IbnEzraBereshit18-21" data-aht="source">Bereshit 18:21</a><a href="R. Avraham ibn Ezra" data-aht="parshan">About R. Avraham ibn Ezra</a></multilink> who understands Hashem's words "וְאֶרְאֶה הַכְּצַעֲקָתָהּ הַבָּאָה אֵלַי עָשׂוּ <b>כָּלָה</b>" to mean that Hashem was to check if <b>all</b> of Sedom's inhabitants had done evil.</fn> R"Y Bekhor Shor asserts that had there been, Hashem would have saved them individually; Avraham's request was based on erroneous understanding of hashem's plan.<fn>Hashem was not willing to save the wicked if there were fewer than ten righteous in the city, but He would have still saved the righteous themselves.</fn>&#160; For a fuller discussion of&#160; Avraham's plea to save sedom see <a href="Avraham's Prayer for Sedom" data-aht="page">Avraham's Prayer for Sedom</a>.</li>
 +
<li><b>Plague of first-borns</b> – Rashi explains that even the firstborns of maidservants and captives were killed because they, too, had enslaved the Israelites and were happy in their sorrow.</li>
 +
<li><b>Sin of golden calf</b> – According to Rashi, drawing off Bavli Yoma 66, Hashem plagued only those who were guilty or worshiping the calf but who had escaped punishment by the Levites on technical grounds that they had not been warned beforehand.</li>
 +
<li><b>Sin of Spies</b> – R"Y Bekhor Shor explains that only those of age to enter the military were punished because they were the ones who complained, being afraid to fight the Canaanites.</li>
 
</ul></point>
 
</ul></point>
<point><b>Sedom</b></point>
 
<point><b>Plague of first-borns</b></point>
 
 
<point><b>Sin of golden calf and spies</b></point>
 
<point><b>Sin of golden calf and spies</b></point>
 
<point><b>Ir Nidachat</b></point>
 
<point><b>Ir Nidachat</b></point>

Version as of 13:14, 20 July 2015

Collective Punishment

Exegetical Approaches

This topic is currently in progress

Only the Sinners are Punished

Hashem only punishes the deserving and does not collectively punish anyone for someone else's crime.

Divine justice? This position is motivated by the understanding that justice demands that each person be punished for their own crime and not that of another.
Individual providence? This approach must maintain that Hashem watches over every being individually, and knows each of their actions so He can reward and punish each according to their deeds.
Biblical Cases of Collective Punishment – This approach tries to explain away all the cases in Tanakh where there seems to be collective punishment:
  • The flood – These sources assert that the entire world was destroyed in the flood because, with the exception of Noach, everyone, animals included, had sinned.1
  • Sedom – Rashi points out that the verse specifies that "כָּל הָעָם מִקָּצֶה" surrounded Lot's house, proving that there was not even one righteous man amongst them.2 R"Y Bekhor Shor asserts that had there been, Hashem would have saved them individually; Avraham's request was based on erroneous understanding of hashem's plan.3  For a fuller discussion of  Avraham's plea to save sedom see Avraham's Prayer for Sedom.
  • Plague of first-borns – Rashi explains that even the firstborns of maidservants and captives were killed because they, too, had enslaved the Israelites and were happy in their sorrow.
  • Sin of golden calf – According to Rashi, drawing off Bavli Yoma 66, Hashem plagued only those who were guilty or worshiping the calf but who had escaped punishment by the Levites on technical grounds that they had not been warned beforehand.
  • Sin of Spies – R"Y Bekhor Shor explains that only those of age to enter the military were punished because they were the ones who complained, being afraid to fight the Canaanites.
Sin of golden calf and spies
Ir Nidachat
Achan and death of the 37
Plague in time of David
What about babies?

Slightly Guilty also Punished

When Hashem inflicts punishment, those who are totally innocent are never included.  However, individuals who are guilty by association, or culpable to even a small degree, might be included in the punishment of a worse sinner.

Sources:Bavli ShabbatShabbat 54b-55aAbout the Bavli, Radak, Rif on Yehoshua, Abarbanel on Korach

Even the Innocent Punished

Sometimes Hashem collectively punishes the entire group and the innocent suffer together with the guilty.

Sources:R. Saadia Gaon, Ralbag, Abarbanel, Malbim, Netziv
Why is this justified?
Individual providence?
Majority vs. minority of sinners?
Collective salvation?
Can humans also collectively punish?